I have more to say, but I lost interest.

[sparklebutch]

I post this with fear for wankery, but I decided to post it anyway, because some things are better said than not.


So recently someone got trashed because people bitched about her use of BDSM in fic. Regardless of that specific fic, I have several things to say, which I thought everyone knew but obviously there are people who learn Everything They Know About BDSM from fluffy fic, meaning, they know shit (but not, you know, scat. Nevermind that).

First of all. BDSM does NOT always include sex. In many cases it doesn't even go there. It most certainly does not have to include orgasms for everyone involved every single time. To me, it only shows how people are affected by their own misconceptions when they read fanfic, completely disregarding other options.

Second. If there are no safewords, that's a bit daft on the part of the Top, who should be spanked for it in my opinion, but it's most definitely NOT "evil cruel torture". Torture is a huge word. If you want torture, watch a bit of news on occasion. Side note: people use certain words far too easily, like torture, rape, abuse, stalk, and various other things which are serious crimes that ruin people's lives in a way that's hard to imagine, especially if you're so quick to use them.

Third, and now we're really moving from the original subject, but did you know a LOT of what people do in BDSM is never mentioned in fic? I'm sure you did. I'm not calling for golden showers every other fandom, because really, I won't enjoy reading it, but let's face it, there's a lot of kinks (some good for me to read, some really not) that are never touched in slash. Why is that.

Fourth, I guess warnings for hardcore depend on the fandom. Partly based on canon material and how dark it is, partly based on the fanbase and how old/kinky/mature/perverted they are. Still, I think people need to be more aware of different perceptions, and not jump quite so quickly at every little thing.

Comments

[anidada.livejournal.com]

What was it about the fic that bothered the complainant, exactly? Just the use of BDSM, or how it was portrayed, or their own ideas of what constitutes valid practice, or...?

[k-haldane.livejournal.com]

I wrote the fic, with a plot involving a substitute dom, who was acting on instructions from the sub's normal dom. It was a fairly straightforward punishment situation, but there were objections about the substitute dom not setting up safewords or other exits for the sub. However they both were acting in accordance with the normal rules between this sub and his dom.

The complainant clearly has very specific ideas about valid practice, and views everything outside of their rules (even if agreed upon beforehand) as "torture".

[sparklebutch.livejournal.com]

TORTURE! That's such a huge word! One could argue for/against "irresponsible", but it's still several miles and a few scary-lookin' implements away from..

But, this post isn't about that one specific commenter. It's about a lot of other things going on, and about a lot of views. I want to point that out, I'm not targeting that one person.

[k-haldane.livejournal.com]

Yes, it was not my intent either. I just felt that, as the author, I was in a position to answer the question.

[sparklebutch.livejournal.com]

Yaeh, that's why I waited and let you take the reply instead of me :)

[anidada.livejournal.com]

Then (without having seen the fic and the comment, granted), it seems the short (and possibly facile) explanation is that the complainant thinks way too highly of their own opinion, and likely has limited exposure to anything outside their own experience/reality/what they read in their tiny corner of teh intarweeeeb.

Whatever constitutes valid practice for the people involved (whether fictional or real) is their own business, and whatever anyone else has to say on the matter is moot. (Obvious, but I'm saying it anyway. :)

[coneyislandbaby]

May I pass this link to some interested parties? I have things to say but am at work and must be at home to do this properly - but I do agree with you lots.

[sparklebutch.livejournal.com]

Yes, you may :)

[cinder1013.livejournal.com]

I think this is coming from a misunderstanding of the meaning of the word torture as well as a misunderstanding of all of the ramifications of bdsm. Here is a link to the definition of torture. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/torture

[sparklebutch.livejournal.com]

Yeah, but, today, "torture" doesn't mean "inflicting pain" quite so... inclusively. It's reserved for major things, and things that are not consensual, etc.

[cinder1013.livejournal.com]

That's what I mean. Looking at the definition, torture is a word that means major infliction of pain, distress, or other potentially life threatening harm, meant to cause and for the purpose of harm. People are so used to hearing hyperbolic statements like, "Joe is torturing me with that box of donuts. He knows I can't have any," that they begin to think torture really means that when it most certainly does not.

[sparklebutch.livejournal.com]

People who don't pay attention to words is one thing.. but I dunno, this strange views on bdsm, it's another thing.

[calime]

Frankly, I was surprised at the commenter stating such an opinion in such a..stiff-necked way. Maybe it's that I've been involved in online fandom thingy less than 2 years, or maybe it's that for example Highlander fandom is mostly already perhaps past that kind of wank, but I think it was a first for me - to see someone voicing their personal view of things like a law. Felt...weird.
I do wonder from the tone of the comment if perhaps something in the fic was a bit of a personal squick for the commenter and therefore caused such an inflexible, hard to understand, reaction??

[sparklebutch.livejournal.com]

The tone of the comment I assumed was simply because that person was an admin or admin's friend.

But again, it wasn't about that one comment. It was about attitudes in fandom as a whole.

[babydraco.livejournal.com]

People aren't always clear about what they want from fanfiction, or what they expect from authors. Non fan fic BDSM fic online doesn't help-it's often full of bizarre attitudes and wrong information (not that I have much of a clue either but sometimes things are just obvious). Sometimes people take the opposite view and become convinced that if it's kink fic, it is required to follow some formalized script- there can be no gray areas or blurring of lines.

But I think it's like a lot of other areas of fan fic and the fandom world- people are not exactly sure what they really want out of it.

Are they only in it for the cheap porn?
Or do they expect serious, dramatic and risk taking fiction?
Do they want "realistic" bdsm, or do they want fantasy?
Are they hobbyists (fandom wise), or do they want to be taken seriously as a professional writer/provider of some other fandom service?

[sparklebutch.livejournal.com]

That people aren't sure what they want is one thing. That they don't let other people do what they want, is another. There should be place for fanfics that are pure fantasy, and for realism. There should be place for porn, and for plot.

Ehh. I dunno, I just find people strange.

[keerawa.livejournal.com]

Third, and now we're really moving from the original subject, but did you know a LOT of what people do in BDSM is never mentioned in fic? I'm sure you did. I'm not calling for golden showers every other fandom, because really, I won't enjoy reading it, but let's face it, there's a lot of kinks (some good for me to read, some really not) that are never touched in slash. Why is that.

I think that dominance and submission are VERY common in slash, because the power dynamics of two strong male characters is part of wht attracts us to many of these pairings. Blood play seems very common in fandoms with vampires (duh) or characters who can heal themselves. After all, it is quite a fantasy to not have to respect any of the safe and sane limits that we need to follow when playing with sharp objects around normal mortals. For some odd reason, almost every Ethan/Giles piece I've read involves blades.

Are there other kinks that are very wide-spread in particular fandoms?

[sparklebutch.livejournal.com]

D/s also has various ways of happening...

My head hurts, so I can't answer properly at the moment, but I have to say this, you must be getting into different G/E fic than I do, because I rarely see blades with them. I see blades in Kronos/Methos, but that's kinda canon ;)

[nematoddity.livejournal.com]

I very rarely write BDSM for fics, because in general, the characters I write about have no connection to that realm, but when I have, I always get at least a couple responses along the lines of, wait, where's the leather, and wait, why was this BDSM?

Control situations in plainclothes qualify. Rope, chain, drawstring cord, tape, RIBBON, hell, if it can be used to bind--even loosely--it's yet another measure of control. Controlling with voice works; in fact, I've used it. It's generally harder for the sub not to be bound by anything but their own will to stay down.

And yeah, it bugs me that it's all harsh brutality, or gentle loving fluffysado....and both of these feature guys? Like, the same guys from the same fandom??

*shakes my head*

I'm with you.

[sparklebutch.livejournal.com]

I love you being with me!!

(Yes, I'm a bit ded too. But, I do love you being with me. Because... because I know, and you know, so how come so many don't know?)

[nematoddity.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I know, it confuses me.

I chalk it up to people completely misunderstanding, constantly, just what IS BDSM. Because they're afraid to understand, or think it's icky, or whatever they're not into, they don't want to know about...

*shakes head*

Yeah.

[sparklebutch.livejournal.com]

Yeah, but if people don't understand or want to know something, one assumes they won't be.. having opinions about it, or writing/reading it.

[fledge.livejournal.com]

Hear, hear!

I get the impression there's a (small? large?) clique of fans whose sole purpose is to ferret around among labelled bdsm fics for those which don't meet their silk-scarves-and-fluffy-handcuffs view of the genre, just so that they can complain. It boggles me, really. Don't they have better things to do? They're like Mary Whitehouse, the (in)famous censor of early British TV.

[sparklebutch.livejournal.com]

Some fandoms tend more towards a vanillised version of BDSM than others. It's kinda sad. For them, mostly. Also makes one wonder about fandom group statistics such as age and kink levels.

[fledge.livejournal.com]

Well, true, but taken overall I imagine that kink is going to occupy a small niche in *any* fandom - unless it follows a canonically kinky show. That's all fine and dandy for them but really not the point. Some people should be taught that if you don't want to be stung by bees, you shouldn't go around poking bees' nests with sticks! Every kinky story I've ever read has been plastered with the direst warnings which (by my scale of reckoning) never live up to their promises, yet people get away with writing the sickliest pink candyfloss which makes me retch, without the slightest warning whatsoever. Not that you can't usually spot it from the first sentence, but that's beside the point. And yet I don't go around complaining about candyfloss, I merely ignore it.

Perhaps there is a psychological study here as to whether light bdsm afficionadoes have a compulsive click and read disorder..? Train wreck fascination syndrome... I think it's like lipstick lesbians. They're curious, but when they find out what's really involved, they get scared. And then feel guilty for having been curious in the first place. So they lash out. **Wonders if we could start labelling them all the 'leather and lipstick crowd'**

[sparklebutch.livejournal.com]

canonically kinky show

Well, canon did say Chase did bdsm. I think hot wax was mentioned. Can't remember for sure.

direst warnings

This one warned for bdsm. Certain people wanted warnings for torture, noncon, and general OMGNOES shit.

never live up to their promises

Yeah, I find that sad, too. I see happy warnings for various kinks, click all happily, and what I get is vanilla with an extra 'sir' put in. Oh well.

And hey, don't put down lipstick lesbians, some of them are far kinkier than the fashionable-leather crowds ;)

[fledge.livejournal.com]

Well, canon did say Chase did bdsm. I think hot wax was mentioned. Can't remember for sure.

Heee are you sure this isn't wishful thinking?

Some people just want a story's entire plot picked out in labels before they'll read. And would complain anyway. I know this because they do. A friend of mine has posted an entire separate page of warnings and disclaimers and background etc. etc. to her story, just because of the outcry to the (previously written) sequel - which WAS heavily labelled anyway - and frankly, her fic is more vanilla than most edgy scifi-fantasy on the open shelves in Borders. I sometimes wonder what these kinds of fans are doing watching SF. They'll scare themselves when they see OMGNOES MONSTERS EATING PEOPLE!!! But then I remember that they aren't following the plot anyhow, they're just drooling over the lead actors' screen time. You could put them in Teletubbies and these people wouldn't know the difference. Makes me cross >.<

All I want to know before I read a fic is whether the damn thing will make me cry. Which generally only happens if they die (permanently). And people NEVER WARN PROPERLY FOR THAT.

Actually I'm quite grateful for mpreg warnings. But as I said, the label I could most do with is for candyfloss. Ah well.

Oooh, kinky lipstick lesbians? Pray introduce me *EG*